Some responses on social media to my post dated Jan 3rd, 2018
On H1 B Visa Changes
Louis D. Lo Praeste
You have excellent data and points–and a more than a few cheap shots about entitled US labor–or “American lads”. Let me ask you this- do these recipients express their thankfulness to THIS country—-if so how? Do they learn and English, to they understand the need for hygiene in close work spaces, (yes some developers actually need to be told to consider deodorants) and acclimate their families and children into society or do they create Indian and Chinese enclaves where there is no need to change their behavior? Do they vote, do they participate in civil life? You present the Indian immigrant as the ideal worker–but many people would disagree. That they are ready to come to work on American holidays means perhaps that they do not respect them–or more problematically create a more competitive environment for families who might like to enjoy those holidays and not worry about someone trying to steal their job. I find your defense of this practice to be shallow and a bit biased towards our Indian colleagues. (edited)
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Louis D. Lo Praeste Your concern is genuine and valid. Being an Indian, I can tell you how other Indians try to create their own micro-culture instead of integrating with mainstream Americans. It comes mostly from the cultural and upbringing where many of these who do that are not having self-confidence, feel inferior and insecure. It will take sometime to get them settled (check for Indians who came here 20 years ago and you wont feel the same in them) (edited)
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So you’re saying it’s a race to the bottom. The person willing to put 24/7 in wins. Got it… what you paint is what is called a lose-lose scenario. Crafty folks with solid math skills would understand that to be the worst end state.
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Vikrant Rai, CFA
Well put … and rational explanation than most emotional outbursts for personal grudges.
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Shardul, what you say is true, but the ugly resultant truth is corporation use Indian firms to cut operations costs, in new product rollouts, help desk, and as you say, very technical fields. This displaces American workers, just as union busting did. It is a global economy, what happens eventually is that India , Mexico, China, whenever the workers improve their standard of living, they want a new car, a nice house, nice clothes, travel for nice vacations. Global economies raise standard of living everywhere, at what cost. Will all counties have to socialize education, like India has? To compete in a global market takes a deep look into how to be a global leader, education of the young, retrain displaced workers.. there is a solution and limiting H1 B is part of that correction. Yes, I voted for Trump, this country needs this correction
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Michael J. Albany
Shardull is 100% spot on and most of the other comments in this tread are a bunch of excuses. Our educational system has been failing us for at least 40 years. We have been giving our children rewards and trophies for participation rather than for achievement. We allow the wealthy the opportunity to buy their child’s way through college. We are not keeping up globally in education, technology, or manufacturing, yet we want our children to succeed. To the person that commented somewhere above that he is unemployed at age 60 with lots of experience; Yep and that puts you out of the job market because you expect to get paid for that experience. It will take 2-5 years for your experience to show results at which time you will retire. Or they can pay a person half your age half as much to be up and productive in the same period of time. That is a decision based on business not or country of origin.
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Michael J. Albany
Part 2: To those saying its a culture thing; your parents, grandparents, great grandparents, also took a generation or two to blend into the American culture (ideas of hygiene fall into this category too). That is normal. To those asking “what do these people contribute? Do they pay taxes? Do they vote?” They can’t vote under a visa; they must be citizens first. They pay taxes more regularly and with fewer deductions than most Americans and if they send money home to their families they pay taxes again there on the same earnings. They also contribute diversity, culture, opinion, labor, ingenuity, to name but a few things. To anyone that thinks the H1 B program is hurting America and that Indians and Chinese are hurting this country, Check yourself. Your Red Neck is showing.
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Snapshot 2001: My conversation with mid size telecommunication equip builder in US as I applied for job to develop specialized near real-time non-hierarchical database to feed info to their switches quickly: Why should I pay you US software development wages when TCS (Tata Consulting Services) will have someone in my office next month for 75% of what you’re asking. At that point I first fully understood that the H1B program is unadulterated US labor market abuse. How much did that TCS consultant pay out of his own pocket for the Masters in Computers Science I spent 6 years many $$$ and many late nights earning. The H1B program MUST hire only people in specialities not available here in the local US market … Not be used to lop 25% off the earnings of US citizens.
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Sowdesh Kumar Sukumar
Louis D. Lo Praeste There is a difference between taking a shower every morning before work and not wearing a deodorant vs Wearing the deodorant every morning before work and once in a week jump into the pool to increase its salinity ;P
I have worked with numerous Indian engineers and love there work ethic.
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My experience working with Indians has been horrible. Not very knowledgeable, can’t speak our language with any clarity and always an excuse for their failures. The program needs to be shut down. Hire American workers.
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I have just moved back to the US after living in the UK for 13 years. I heard the same rhetoric there as well, that jobs were being taken by foreigners. If it was only that simple, that there was tons of qualified talent available to hire, and only the economics of cheap labor drove my hiring decisions. That simply wasn’t the case there, and as a hiring manager I can tell you that isn’t the case here either. Global education systems have created a very capable talent pool to hire from. For different reasons both the UK and US have not been able to keep up with the demand.
Populace thinking is how people like Hitler came to power. Find a scapegoat to blame and exploit the ignorance and hatred of the masses. With all that being said though, the H1B program needs an overhaul because it victimizes the worker, as well artificially influencing the local job markets.
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I disagree with you having worked with 100s of Indians in the ME, and more and more here in the US… We do not need outsourced technical expertise, most particular engineering, when we have qualified people sitting here struggling to find work. We don’t need the expertise from India or any other third world country. Companies use exactly what you are spewing as an excuse to hire an engineer at $40k as opposed to $100k for a domestically degree’d engineer! Try that BS on somebody that doesn’t live in the world you are trying throw flowers on!…see more
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Dominic J Fruges
Shardul — I take great offense at your depiction of Americans. I have worked with many Americans over the years and never questioned their work ethic. I can remember working for a then large telecom company and deciding to go into work on a holiday. I thought I would be perhaps one of a few but found probably over 100 cars in the parking lot on a HOLIDAY. Personally, I have worked all hours including weekends (on my own time) to either get work done or read tech white papers to learn new technologies. Tired of your nonsense logic and anti-American comments. (edited)
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SHARDUL BHATT Your post is so far off base that I can almost laugh. Almost. I, an American born citizen, got into the IT business in the U.S. from a previous position as an Administrative Assistant in the 1980s. From that day forward, I worked 60 to 80 hour weeks most of the time. Those around me, also U.S. citizens, worked the same hours. When a project was due, we worked around the clock to finish it if we had to. Sometimes we would take a two hour nap in our cars. Sometimes we could go home and eat, sleep, get up, eat, and go back to work. When I started training new H1-B employees, I found them to be typical of young adults everywhere. Bitch and moan about the hours, expect to be treated special. I trained it out of them, as was part of my job. I taught them the things they couldn’t learn in college. The worst part was having to prove that I, a woman, knew more than them. With all of my experience, they had to see that I was worthy of their respect, rather than the other way around. This was especially true of Indian workers. I stopped working in the IT business in my 50s. Even though I was at the top of the field, I was tired. Tired of the hours and always having to prove that I deserved my position.
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I don’t like Trump and am of Indian descent myself, born and raised in the West, but I’ve worked in the tech industry since graduating, and of the 25-30 Indian hires I’ve worked with, they have always, without exception, produced the poorest quality work by far. They come in with resumes showcasing lots of work experience, but they lack a proper understanding of everything from polymorphism to data structure performance – stuff I had a strong grasp of in the 10th grade.
What they do understand is syntax, which children here commonly learn in elementary school. In the world of electrical engineering, it’s circuit symbols. They cannot solve problems above a very basic level of complexity – they usually need some template to work off of. This isn’t a racial thing, but to do with Indian education. The schools there are of piss-poor quality and practically diploma mills. That, and rampant abuse of the program by Indian contracting firms, is why “70%” of H1-B applicants are Indians.
This isn’t something limited to just me either. If you browse around on tech forums/subreddits, you won’t at all be hard-pressed to find complaints or someone ready to complain about the extreemly poor quality work done by Indian H1-B holders. (edited)
I’d also like to point out that Indians being the primary source of H1-B applications is actually rather saddening. A LOT of very well qualified engineers from the Anglosphere and Europe would love to work for tech firms in the US, but they cannot or do not bother because the market is absolutely flooded. The applications come from these Indian contracting firms.
These firms hire out their workers to American companies. I’ve seen promising young tech graduates rejected for jobs at my own company in favor of some Indian contractors. They actually advertise US work placement back in India, and require little to no technical competence.
For an individual from say, the UK, they have to find a company willing to sponsor an H1-B for them. Most companies and applicants don’t go through that trouble. But Indian companies make it super easy, running it like a visa business. Read: millions of Indians are actively abusing the H1-B program.
All this, while dozens of engineering graduates from my university have been out of jobs for years now.If you don’t have a job in your field soon after graduating, you miss out forever. And we pumped tens of thousands into our degrees here.
Indians ARE stealing jobs.